Twin 2013 DF 140 diagnostic dilemma both start won't run more than 10 seconds...

[dlbstarlane]

First post, hello and thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Twin DF 140s 2013 pushing a 25 foot center console -- 9 years without a single issue, yearly 100 hour maint done by me, last in 3/2022. 500 hours roughly. New plugs, filters, anodes, oil etc. Water pumps. Same high turnover fuel source, regular (E10) that both Suzuki and my local dealer agreed were fine.

1 month ago after a normal start, warm up (15 mins at dock) about 1 min after throttle up to 4000, BOTH engines smoothly shut down and would not start. Shut everything down, replaced one for the Racor spin ons with a spare and drained the blue plastic filter on the same engine. Fuel from primer to that filter after shaking it out. Still same: hear the fuel pump, the engine fires and starts normally, then runs and sputters to a stop in 5-10 secs. Towed in for the first time in my life, luckily only 1 mile from the dock. Port engine threw a MAP-2 code (3, 2), Starb no code but same start/die. Pumping primer bulb doesn't help, cannot advance in neutral as well.

I assumed water in fuel as my boat was built in 1988 and it has been a monsoon of rain lately (hatches over the 140 gallon tank needed O ring freshening and I had noticed water in there that required pumping out.)

1. Pumped out and polished the fuel (commercial service), there was enough water found that it seems possible that the rear twin pic up tubes could have shipped that water when the boat was nose up before it planed. Tank inspected, no leaks, inside mirror clean after fuel polish, new gaskets to the pic up tube hatch. Hatch O rings replaced. Fresh fuel and additive added (Stabile 360, as always)

2. On my boat, 2 pick ups run individual lines through individual Racor 10 micron filters then to separate primer bulbs then to each engine. All lines inspected, blown clean, up to the VST/high pressure filter which I can't get to (the boat is on a lift, and can't get to a trailer unless I get at least one motor running -- don't want to remove the manifold over the water!) Visual inspection of the HPF/FSV/Lines on high pressure side through the fuel rail all look clean and like new.

3. New Racors were installed and new blue plastic suzuki filters, I connected each engine up to a portable tank with new fuel -- same result: start, idle, die. No change with filler cap open, vent line seems fine.

4. I removed the MAP sensor, cleaned the port (which looked pristine) -- no change, still 3- 2 code. I swapped the port and star board MAP sensors, turned off all power, disconnected the white wire for a minute, reconnected everything and no change -- still get 3,2 on the port engine with a different sensor.

5. Checked both starting batteries -- both white wires are connected directly to the positive starboard battery -- both batteries show 12.45 on the meters, which is 75% or so of full, and should be enough, correct?

It seems that even if both engines sucked up enough water to block the racors and the low pressure filters, replacing and flushing the lines should fix this. If the high pressure pump/filter or VST wasn't allowing fuel flow, it seems to me that there would be no normal start or a few seconds of idle, then the shut down. The chance of BOTH engines have exactly the same flow fault on the HPP/filter/VST seems to be very unlikely, and it feels like an engine control shutting them both down every time after a normal start. There is no other code, and the injectors seem to work perfectly on both engines for the start delivery of fuel, it hardly cranks as usual, fires right up. I've never had to use the primer bulbs even after sitting for a month.

Is there a separate fuel delivery route for priming/start? I assume that fuel for the start is pumped by the HPP inside the VST to the rails/injectors, but I feel I am missing something that controls both motors after the start, since I can't get either to run even from a separate fuel tank.


Thanks for your thoughts -- these have been really great motors for me up to now.

[Murray]

No mention of draining the VSTs. See part #6 on the link below. If you haven’t done so it’s worth a try, collect the fuel and look for water.

https://www.boats.net/catalog/suzuki...apor-separator

[dlbstarlane]

Murray I would but can't get to VSTs without full manifold removal -- hard to do on a lift over the water. I'll have to check again but I don't think I can get to the drain screw without removing the manifold.

[Murray]

Have a close look, wouldn’t make sense for Suzuki to put a drain screw that wasn’t easily accessible. Look for a plastic drain hose at the bottom of the VST and go from there.

[Moonlighter]

I have seen reports where contamination in the VST would drop back from the filter screen after the engine was stopped, and then as soon as the engine was started or shorty thereafter it would clog it up again. Only one way to fix that….

[dlbstarlane]

Thanks Murray. You were right -- there IS a way to get to the VST drain screw, but you can't see it unless you take off the starboard lower cowling as it covers the bottom 6-7 inches of the manifold/VST -- if you do that you can find and follow the hose and behind a fuel hose is the drain screw. With a long phillips, holding that fuel hose aside, the screw is accessible.

So I drained both VSTs and back flushed with new fuel (a 30 cc epoxy syringe fits perfectly into the hose), and then drained again. I got some separated fuel from the starboard one but the port looked like regular clean fuel. (see photo, starboard) 20220901_130231.jpg

Then I disconnected the high pressure fuel hoses at the top after the high flow filter and drained the fuel rails (and flushed with some new fuel.

Closed, reconnected everything with high hopes...

Now the starboard engine will run at idle (awesome) but will not go above 1000 without stalling. Left at idle is sounds perfect (no sputters/misses etc) but starts to miss if advanced. The port engine still throws a 3-2 code but now won't fire at all except momentarily after primer bulb is pumped fully up. Swapped out a different bulb same thing. Going to try hooking that one up to the small tank today with the new fuel.

The only thing I haven't replaced is the high pressure fuel filters, so I think that would be next. Also going to pull the newish (February) plugs just to look at them.

[Moonlighter]

In my experience, if you get water contamination, which you now know, has happened, it almost always seems to have has other contaminants (debris) in it as well.

Draining the VST showed water was in there. But that’s only half the job, there is a small screen filer in there that is very likely clogged up. Part #20 in this diagram:
https://www.boats.net/catalog/suzuki...apor-separator

And yes the high pressure filters can get contaminated with the same debris as well.

One further thought - have a friend whose tanks got salt water into them, had water in fuel alarms going off.. stopped and emptied water separating filter and filters in engine, kept going and it happened again, did same thing, rinse and repeat several more times. Got home safely. But took it to mechanic for service after it had sat a couple of weeks ….. long story short, the water contamination caused corrosion in the LP fuel pump which caused it to fail.

You should have had water in fuel alarms going off - did that not happen? There was a recall on the 2012-14 DF140’s to replace ecu’s because the water in fuel settings were not working, yours probably should have been replaced, most times, dealers drew this to owner’s attention when engines went in for servicing. Suzuki should have a record of whether your engines were affected and whether or not the ecu’s were changed.

[Murray]

The photo you provided of your fuel/water mixture appears to me that the fuel is old. Fresh fuel should be clear like water unless you have added a fuel treatment which will change the colour of your fuel. Classic symptoms of old fuel is the engine will start and idle fine, application of throttle and everything goes to heck. When you try the new tank with fresh fuel give the fuel a good dose of gas line antifreeze, Seafoam, methyl hydrate or similar product. What ever you use make sure it’s safe for o rings. IF you didn’t have water in your fuel I’d suggest you burn it off in your vehicle but in your case I’d suggest you take it to an outfit that will accept bad fuel. The other option is put it in old jerrycans and leave it somewhere where it will get stolen.

[dlbstarlane]

Thank Murray and Moonlighter.

According to my manual there is no water in fuel alarm on my engines, and no sensor wire at the engine side fuel filter (as on some Yamaha/Mercury engines). I always add Stabil 360 to my gas, which comes from a high turnover station nearby. Never had an issue before running these engines, or my flats boat's Yamaha with that fuel. Generally I never let the boats sit for more than a month without adding fresh fuel/additive. They simply shut down together, no warning, no sputtering, just like the key was turned off.

Last month ago a commercial fuel polisher accessed, pumped and filtered the tank, inspected the lines and changed out the access gasket. Still that polished fuel is older than usual for me because I haven't been able to run and burn it off.

Unfortunately even with a portable tank with new fuel and additive, nothing is better: the S side engine will run at idle but not with throttle advanced. It runs maybe 5 mins and then will stall, restart normally etc. No codes on that engine. The P engine throws the 3-2 MAP 2 code regardless of swapping sensors with the 'good side.' It will not fire at all.

Next steps will be to pull the manifolds, VST/HP filters and change out the plugs for good measure. Unfortunately my Suzuki mechanic is booked out until October 20 (!) so there is no way to test the ECU (according to the manual, all of this COULD be ECU fault) but I think it unlikely given the event, the water removed from the tank, confirmed by removal from one VST, etc. I've had ZERO problems with these engines since installation in 2013 including no notifications of recall, although Suzuki has mailed me a couple of extend your warranty solicitations.

I appreciate your thoughtful replies.

M

[redlowrey]

All you have to do is remove the high pressure line from the rail get some one to turn the key on and look and see how much fuel gets pumped out, if the gauze filter in the vst was blocked or the high pressure fuel filter was blocked it would dribble out of the line. If it is coming out in a good flow with no water it should be fine.
Has your low pressure fuel filter got two wires coming out of it, if it has, remove it and clean the sensor put it back together and try it. I haven't got a wiring schematic for your engine and I cant remember if the signal voltage gets pulled to ground when there is water in the system or not.

That is probably the reason it will idle and not get fuel enrichment when the throttle is opened. Also don't worry about the map sensor at this point in time a 3.2 code means the computer can't see a changing voltage when the engine is cranked, so what that means when the key is on there is around 4 volts sitting on the map sensor signal line, when the engine is cranking there should be a small change, when the engine starts that will disappear.
After you have cleaned the sensor on the engine that won't start lift the warm up leaver and open the throttle a small amount and see if it starts.

[dlbstarlane]

Thanks redlowrey . I'll check -- I was just thinking about how I could 'test' the filtering on the high pressure side. And appreciate the expert input on what is actually happening on the 3.2 code. I've cleaned the passage which looked pristine, so hopefully it will clear when I get that engine to run. My 2013 sn 213XXX doesn't seem to have a water sensor on the engine filter: no wires just a blue plastic jug. I also don't have a warm up leaver -- should I just open the throttle out of gear a bit or am I missing something?

[redlowrey]

If you haven't got a warm up leaver it will have a throttle only switch, from what you were describing in your first post, to effect both motors at the same time you would think it would be a large dose of water.
In your opinion did you get a couple of liters of water out of the system when you cleaned it.

Something is not adding up, at this point in time the most important thing is to make sure there is good flow coming out of the line from the high pressure filter with no water. if it dribbles out you have to test the flow on the input side of the high pressure filter to see if the gauze filter in the vst is blocked.
For the engine to idle smooth and not miss you would think there would be no water, so if the vst was blocked or the high pressure filter was blocked it would stall when the throttle was opened, also if the little filter baskets inside the injectors are blocked it will do the same thing.

[dlbstarlane]

redlowrey we got between 1 and 2 liters of water out when we pumped the tank and polished the fuel, likely due to a failed gasket at the pickup tube cover combined with deck hatches that needed renewed o rings. The tank is 140 gallons and the water goes to the deep V in the bottom, I think it just built up until was enough to reach the pickups when everything sloshes toward the stern during the bow rise before planing. Funny though that there was not a single missed beat or sputter or warning until the 'big gulp.'

So I get nothing out of the high pressure line at all, not with key turn or cranking. I'm going to double check that there is fuel with cranking out of the low pressure pump (I know fuel goes through there with primer bulb when I flushed/blew out those lines earlier). Then I guess I will take off the manifold to get to the high pressure filter and VST -- maybe just drop VST off at the Suzuki shop for them to clean and check. I would assume that I'd hear the high pressure pump with key turn but I don't (not sure how much noise it makes dry). Never had to do anything to a VST tank other than the draining.

I imagine the HP filter is a straight replacement -- nothing to clean -- and I didn't know there were individual screens in the injectors, is this something that is able to be accessed? I've seen them cleaned by running fuel through them but I also thought that they either worked or didn't but it makes sense that if there were some blockage it might only show at higher fuel rates.

The working S engine does stall when advanced but at least it is getting some fuel on the HP side to the rails, but I suppose the fix is the same. I wish I could get to the VSTs and HP filters without having to take the manifold off. Ugh.

Thanks again for working through this with me, I am learning a lot and it makes sense.

[redlowrey]

Before you blow a shit load of money, if you can't heat the fuel pumps turn on when you turn the key on obviously nothing is going to come out of the high pressure lines. Take the cover off stay at the motor and get some one to tun the key on you should hear the pumps as plane as day, they should run for about three seconds before turning off.

Don't go any further till you can confirm that the pumps come on when you turn the key on.

[dlbstarlane]

Couldn't hear pump on non starting P engine, so I went after the vst. Already flushed the HP filter but no change. Took off manifold and pulled the pump. Will open it in the AM and look at the filter, float etc. S engine.starts and.will idle but not advance although it did run at 3k for about minutes. Will do that vst and hp filter next.