My df60A can't start

[acakic]

Motor is almost new, 2011 year, 400 working hours with excellent performance at the beginnning, quite, strong and economic.

Problems started 2 months ago, motor stopped working couple of times when it was switched to idle after running.
Then became to start harder, every time I needed to start it with throttle after longer cranking, sometimes full throttle was needed and finally it stopped working.
In this period motor worked almost well in crusing speed.
Max rpm was slightly lower 5600, instead of 6100 before. I had sensation that sometimes loses power a bit. Also fuel consumption was increased.

I contacted my Suzuki service imediatelly, diagnostic program didn't find error, he replaced candlesa and external filter. Cylinder compression is good, fuel compression checked 2 times (3 kg/cm2), fuel injector are checked and cleaned, so the fuel line should be ok.
IAC should be OK, it passed diagnostic check (resistance is ok).

Problem progressively is getting worse and worse, so it seems that it is something mechanical, not digital, but we can't be sure.

Anyway nothing helped and the worse thing is that problem is esclalated, so now motor cann't start.

Suzuki dealer reacts very slow and I'm desperate because after 2 months, time and money spent, I don't know neither diagnosis.

Any idea?

Thanks!

[artdf175]

Couple of things you didn't mention
Fuel how fresh ?
Replace the water/fuel filter
Have you checked for water in the fuel?
High pressure fuel pump - has a fuel filter that also should be checked

Low pressure fuel pump working correctly ?
When it was running did the fuel primer bulb collapse?
Would also try a different fuel tank
Clean all the fuel out of the motor attach an external fuel tank with fresh gas

[Solarman]

Maybe MAP sensor needs cleaning, dirty?

Just a thought.

Good luck.

[acakic]

Thank you guys for answers!
Fuel is fresh, I have also tried with other external tank( my fuel tank is also external). Problem was progressively getting worse and in that period I've done more than 300 miles.
Low pressure pump works fine, sound signal for 3 seconds,
plastic small vessel was almost full.
When it was working the bulb wasn't collapsed, only soft.

I haven't checked yet the high pressure pump, but as I mentioned we checked twice the fuel pressure in the high pressure output, 3kg/cm2 both times.
To be 100% I will take out the entire VAP and check high pressure filter.

I didn't know that MAP sensor could be cleaned, I have thought that dignostic software should find any problem in this part. Good point, I will ask dealer to check also this.

I hope that I will find where is the problem, otherwise I will need to send the engine in Germany where is the regional Suzuky center with significant cost.

I'll keep you informed...

Thanks again!

[pipefitter83]

I have found problems with the vapor separator tank floats falling apart and also clogging you will get good electrical test figures
and no fault codes from this problem also

[acakic]

During the last inspection we discovered that IAC is hot.
We tried to start the engine only once, so this is irregular in each case.
New IAC module is ordered, next week I'll know is that the problem.

[acakic]

New IAC valve is installed, but didn't help, I'm desperate ..
It seems that I'll need to transport it in service the regional service center in Germany.

[Antares580]

Checked ignition plugs?

[acakic]

We didnt check ignition plugs, but all sparks were changed and checked after that, so I think that ignition should not be problem. Before the engine stopped working it had hard start, but once shifted forward it had worked almost fine.
I was convinced that IAC is problem, but now we really don't have a clue

[redlowrey]

Assuming you have spark, crank the engine over for twenty seconds then remove the plugs and see if they are wet. If they are wet disconnect the engine temp sensor plug and check the resistance of the sensor. For an ambient temperature of 15 degree's it should be around 3k ohms.If it is up around 10k ohms the ecu will think it is in the arctic.The reason I think it might be this is because you had to use the warm up leaver to start it, and it was using more fuel. If the plugs are completely dry just use a small amount of propane in the throttle plate and crank it over if it tries to start you know that your injectors are not switching, or not switching enough. This test is simple for any one that has no equipment and little understanding or not. If it was in my workshop it would be hooked up to dedicated equipment so when I turned the key on I would see temp sensor voltage, exhaust manifold voltage, inlet air temp voltage, map sensor voltage, iac status and a three second prime on the fuel pump. Then when I crank the engine I will see a change in the map sensor signal line and the primary and secondary in the ignition system all in a matter of minutes.

[acakic]

Thanks Redlowray for this input.
I'll check cylinder temperature sensor for sure, also IAT sensor.
I downloaded the official service manual for df60A and found there some very interesting inspection procedures which can be useful in my case.
I will transfer this to my service guy. He is eccelent mechanic but obviously doesn't know all neccessary tecnical details.
Temperature sensor is first candidate for inspection.
I'll keep you informed ...
Thanks again.

[acakic]

Cylinder temperature sensor is checked today, we tried also to replace it with other one, but no change.
Laptop with diagnostic software was connected with engine all the time.
In the service manual I found simple procedure for TPS calibration.
This sensor goes together with MAP and IAT sensor, everything is part of throotle body and it can't be tuned or take apart.
Ignition off, disconnect connector of the MAP/IAT/TPS sensor, then again ignition ON and alarm sound which means that calibration is finished. Cranking .., but again nothing.
Then we tried crancking changing the throttle position and after cuople of tries engine somehow started. Then we heard alarm signal , but this time we was able to inspect the error in the diagnostic program.
It was MAP sensor error!
Strange thing that this error has not been recorded in the ECM's error log, neither before neither this time! So all seemed well each time when checked out the error log.

New throotle body with MAP/IAT/TPS sensors will cost me 410 EUR, but it would be hard to buy it without this new diagnosis.

For couple of day I will know whether my problem is finally solved.

[acakic]

Old throttle body with 3 sensors is replaced with new one,
but the same problem stays, sometimes engine won't start at all or starts very hard. If starts then sometimes gets 3-2 error( MAP sensor 2).

I have always done everthing regulary, original parts, services just in time, flushed engine after each trip.
Now I'm faced with 3 months lost, 1200 USD spent for all possible inspections and parts replaced, considering that 20 working hours my service guy has worked for free, and my 4 years old engine with only 400 hours still won't start.

I'm really dissapointed with this engine and local Suzuki's support, because iz seems that they are only able to do standard things and expect that customer solve problem with engine by buying parts until problem is not solved.
I'm going to escalate this problem on higher level ...

[redlowrey]

Before you waste any more money, connect a vacuum gauge up to the inlet manifold and crank the engine over. If there is no manifold vacuum being created pull the cam cover off and check the bucket clearance on the valves. I cannot believe you can keep changing sensors without fully checking their operation, there is probably nothing wrong with any of them. I said to check the resistance of the temp sensor, if it checked out why change it. What made you think the map sensor was crook, did you hook a volt meter up to the signal line and check the voltage while the engine was being cranked. The check light will flash a map sensor code if it doe's not see a changing voltage on the signal line while the engine is being cranked.

[acakic]

I already mentioned that cylinder temperature sensor has been checked.
All signals and voltages were correct.
MAP sensor 2 error in idle was indicator that maybe there is a mechanic error inside the throttle body, so replacing that was a desperate move.
I'm end user and I don't need to know all technical details because all work has been done by experienced Suzuki service.
I have trusted to regular Suzuki's support.
I've started to studying the suzuki df60A service manual when I realized that Suzuki's support is not good enough because
they haven't been able to give me diagnosis and have expected that end user should pay new parts until the issue is not solved.

The current situation is following, two days ago service guy took off the ECM and brought it in Germany where he has a Suzuki training.
Whatever they find, I'll not pay additionaly 2000 € for new ECM. After only 400 working hours, paying 2000 € for new ECM would be out of mind!

Almost 4 months lost, 1100 € spent and still without diagnosis.
That shows me that Suzuki's support is slow, unreliable, incompetent and unfair.

I'll wait a few more days, after that I'll contact directly Suzuki in Germany.
In the same time I'll also start sharing my story wherever I can.
No matter how will be end of this story, one thing I already know, Suzuki never more!